Digital Factory : Where are French companies in terms of inclusion of LGBT people? What about the technology sector?
Catherine Tribune: We did not specifically separate sectors, because differences exist in all areas. A lot of people said it was more complicated LGBT+ In a factory or in the provinces and not in Paris, for example, but this is not true. In the same breath BankIn the same industrial group there may be behaviors that are virtuous and inclusive, and on the other hand, there may be behaviors that are not.
On the other hand, what we see is that technology Not particularly comprehensive. This is contrary to the image we may have of it, due to the youth of its members or the subversive nature of everything it produces. But a distinction must be made. On the one hand, there are large organizations, often of American origin, e.g Googlewhere the topic comes naturally and then moves to the European and French subsidiaries.
On the other hand, you have… start And scope expansion. In startups, diversity is not very good. It is no coincidence that Anthony Pupkin Diversity was created (Equal Opportunity for Digital Inclusion, which works to improve diversity overall, editor’s note.) Two years ago, I was asked to speak in front of about thirty startups. I have spoken to a few pension funds and financiers, who are fully aware that this topic is not really discussed. So, with the exception of large groups, which take a proactive approach for reasons of conviction, strategy and the Anglo-Saxon way of working, the digital world is not a more inclusive world.
Do you notice any differences between gays, lesbians and transgender people regarding inclusion at work?
There are a lot of LGBT people who embrace themselves, but very few who are trans. Some people have successfully converted while maintaining their lives jobbut it is very rare. Today, things are a little better, because there are legal conditions, comprehensive policies, and instructions that we are developing to allow the integration of new generations. They arrive at work already determined. We are seeing the arrival of more and more young people whose gender listed on their civil status does not match their gender identity, and who are affirming it. Today, young people have a very strong emphasis on identity.
Does this mean that inclusiveness is the primary criterion for certain candidates?
Yes, exactly, although this happens more for CSP+.
How do you engage with business leaders when signing a compliance charter? Some may think that this is a private matter, not a professional matter…
I serve on boards, executive committees and management committees in public and private institutions before signing the charter, as part of the interview and vetting process. Some companies say to me: “Why is this so important? This is a private matter…” or “It’s no problem with us, we have almost no LGBT people.” If the people involved do not come, there are certainly good reasons, sometimes exaggerated, sometimes wrong.
But when we don’t know the history of these populations, it becomes complicated. Here’s what I explain: Children who are not like their peers will have to dare to tell their parents that they are not like them. Added to this is harassment at school and then in higher education. The perpetrators of this harassment, who are supposedly educated and yet have a rejection of others, exist in public and professional life.
Another thing happens when you enter the job market. Even if you have been vulnerable in your family history, even if you are living your life well as a couple, even if you are part of an internal LGBT network or business or engineering school, whatever your first job looks like, you will first of all, “stay within the norm.” You wait to see what will happen. Because there is also the risk of being judged by this uniqueness, which makes you neither less good nor better.
Those who have no problem with this topic think that there is no need to do much. There is no commitment and no financial penalties in the event of disagreement, and this is not included in the equality index or social dialogue. Those who don’t have problems say that if someone wants to be seen, they can be. But without a strong brand, people won’t do it. And each time, leaders who had previously been a little resistant to the idea of signing the charter, to the idea of doing the same, realize that they need to reassure their team.
Despite some positive signs in the way the French view gay people, the number of attacks is increasing… How is this manifested?
This ranges from insults, which are considered rude, to physical attacks, which are the most obvious. last year, Ministry of Interior He pointed out that in 5 years, crimes have doubled. However, many people do not dare to take the step of going to a police station or gendarmerie. Hence, homophobic aggression has not been adequately described: complaints of aggression are well recorded, but it is difficult to prove that it was due to sexual orientation or gender identity.
Therefore, there is a climate of general insecurity and extremism in behaviour, which clearly extends to the workplace. The challenge is not simple for employers in the public and private sectors, which is to secure and put in place procedures for reporting complaints, crisis lines and alert cells at the same time. But also to draw the line clearly with zero tolerance by public administration, there are references to harassment, diversity and discrimination.
When we look at our figures, three in ten LGBT+ people have experienced an attack, whether verbally or more (according to a measure co-produced by Autre Cercle and IFOP, which was conducted among over 8,000 LGBT+ people) and one in four People who have been discriminated against. This number rises to 25% for executives and 31% for workers.
Aren’t these numbers an underestimate? Do you think some people didn’t dare to talk about it?
It’s hard. Frankly, many people don’t dare, and internalize themselves. Four out of ten people who experienced discrimination did not dare to say so. The number also rises to 42% for trans or non-binary people who have experienced discrimination.
Our barometer is still hitting us. We see positive development within the framework of this committee in the perception of gay, lesbian and bisexual people. On the other hand, for transgender people, it’s complicated. 21% of people questioned, among all French people, are uncomfortable with the idea of coming out as non-binary. It is 6% for gay people, which is a large percentage. This therefore requires a touch of pedagogy and interpretation. It’s brave to be visible today. It’s not cowardly not to be.
Are you noticing, in general, better awareness on the part of companies about these diversity issues?
Yes. In the context of work, we note that the directives Europeanthe mandatory ones in our national law, the sanctions, the policies we have established or even the Pride Month make it possible to move the lines in many public and private organizations. The latter says: “Well, it’s normal for us to talk about that.”
On the other hand, there is a real interest in employer branding for these new generations of the LGBT community, who will go to companies that are concerned about this topic. Now we have to show up. Strong signals must be given to reassure the people concerned, to neutralize any inappropriate behaviour. Everyone thinks about what he wants, but in the workplace we must provide security and calm. This is also the role of allies (heterosexual people who support the LGBT+ community, editor’s note). The people involved have no right to act when something inappropriate is said.
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